It reinforces our subconscious biases, and for many women is enough of a reminder of our status as others to be off-putting. QGIS Atlas print composer - Several raster in the same layout, Books that explain fundamental chess concepts. "Ladies" would be the more common choice. Since Ive been learning more Spanish this past year, Ive been reminded how much of a role gender plays in my everyday language. But I dont think it is inherently exclusionary. Example: "Those guys are getting something to eat." The best answers are voted up and rise to the top, Not the answer you're looking for? How to address one male and one female in an informal email? Why does the USA not have a constitutional court? Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts. The movie script was based on Zoe Akins's Broadway play The Greeks Had a Word for It (1930). As in, saying light things like, My momma didnt raise no resources. She did raise several people though, as well as replacing resources with people in my response where appropriate. Is It acceptable to take adult ballet classes just for Is it safe to say Blackwood is the starter? So far this has not changed the world. Would there be more minority math professors at your university if the existing ones stopped saying you guys? The term is also problematic for some gender-nonconforming or trans people, for whom "guys" could be an instance of 'misgendering' a consistent obstacle to LGBTQI+ people feeling included at work, Diversity Council Australia's recent Out At Work report found. Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts. How does legislative oversight work in Switzerland when there is technically no "opposition" in parliament? The word choice is exclusionary and there are many better, inclusive options to select from. Goodness, yes! Id probably prefer Hey everyone. Guy to guy friends. I use it as a gender neutral term. If someone tells me they dont like it I stay away from it. I refer to my female friends as bro. One of them tol Is it appropriate to ignore emails from a student asking obvious questions. to a group of guys, to a group of guys and girls, or even a group of It only takes a minute to sign up. Disconnect vertical tab connector from PCB, Central limit theorem replacing radical n with n, Can i put a b-link on a standard mount rear derailleur to fit my direct mount frame. It is more likely she would still be talking about men or a mixed group, but you never know. "If we can't even acknowledge the way we acknowledge women in language, then of course there's going to be gender inequality.". Then there's the Aussie slang term "youse," which is often derided as grammatically incorrect. Then move on to speech. Is "thee" a more respectful way to refer to the person that the speaker is addressing? I have to admit, this is the one thing I miss from losing my Southern affect: yall. "gals" is dated, but not dead (US). Where does the idea of selling dragon parts come from? Since recently, I try to reduce the guys usage. I realize this is a current idiom, but I was surprised that she showed absolutely no self-consciousness or irony about the statement. When used in the plural form, is "guys" gender agnostic? Most of us have misspoken at some point, and "we can't lead a completely scripted life," Ms Annese says. It was for me. Do you say "guys" to a group of girls? "In a business environment, you don't want to upset anyone [or] get a proportion of your workforce offside," Professor Hajek says. To subscribe to this RSS feed, copy and paste this URL into your RSS reader. While I have been guilty of using the latter in a work context, Im much less likely to do so now that Ive thought more about how making those jokes can reflect troubling assumptions about trust, boundaries, and whose trust Im entitled to. Words have connations beyond the literal definitions given by dictionaries. I have just found this website, and I think Im about to cry. Yes it isnt The only equality achieved by this constant examining of words for their hidden gender implications and secret meanings, is that all w You'd say 'ladies' or 'girls' or 'women' (assuming you need to mention their That's what I called out to my colleagues most mornings as I wandered to my desk at my old job until one day when a colleague, who had recently joined my team, visibly winced at the greeting. Im not a guy, and dont want to be referred to as such. The best answers are voted up and rise to the top, Not the answer you're looking for? Words mean different things to different people. Everyone is free to change their own words if they choose to but, policing everyone at an organization to change a very basic communication pattern is asking alot and most people will just ignore it unless it becomes an organizational policy not to do so. Stack Exchange network consists of 181 Q&A communities including Stack Overflow, the largest, most trusted online community for developers to learn, share their knowledge, and build their careers. Im also fighting the resource battle. If it is a group that I know really well I use kids as in hey kids or come on kids, the older the people the better. I notice that I use it What is the significance of the x spelling? Some women do. Exchange operator with position and momentum. However, paying attention to language and applying mindfulness to its use in everyday situations is one vector for working on the problem. GPG key: 0x06124ABD. I know women who address groups of women as you guys. Tanglewood Collective began a free, public support group on Wednesday night, called "Real Men, Real Talk." "If it's a contest between worrying about the use of the term 'guys' and actually taking seriously the disproportionate level of violence against Indigenous women, I know where we should be focusing our attention.". I am a female programmer and staunch feminist. Instead Im going with folks yall or peeps. I haven't been able to find a copy of the play's script, however. "You guys" is more likely to be said in women => women or men => men or women => men or mixed-group => mixed-group contexts. I simply choose to respect the fact that is DOES bother at least one of my coworkers (and so probably bothers others). But as not everyone interprets it that way, probably the safest policy is to try to avoid it. "Y'all" is the plural and "you" is the singular. I wake up at 6am, get ready Would it be creepy to give my 30 y/o hairdresser a Do men really feel safe walking alone at night? To break it down, you would be totally fine saying something like "are you guys coming?" We us guys to distinguish men from women all the time. It is not acceptable to use that phrase in writing or formal speech. to a group of guys, to a group of guys and girls, or even a group of girls. If People seem to get offended over everything these days. Demanding they change breeds resentment. Quick History: The Loss of 'Thou' for Second-Person Singular. I've always interpreted "guys" more like "people," as a gender neutral term. There is no doubt that this is a man we're talking about. WebTranscript Ep. I learned this in an Awesome Etiquette podcast by Lizzie Post and Daniel Post-Senning. is enough to tell you that it can sometimes be used to refer just to males. as the person whose tweet you retweeted implied. Is it illegal to use resources in a university lab to prove a concept could work (to ultimately use to create a startup). (French enshrines that mixed-gender groups are masculine quirk in the core grammar of the language upon which all pronoun uses and verb conjugations build). I think Sids point was that to some, you guys is completely gender-neutral. In any event, if the movie reflects contemporaneous usage, it appears that some women were referring to other women as "guys" at least 86 years ago. It's common in San Francisco (where I live now), and around Cleveland (where I grew up), but when I used it in Texas where I went to university, people found it surprising and it labeled me as a Yankee (not that they didn't figure that out as soon as I opened my mouth). However, it is a common phrase in casual situations. However, in colloquial language, you can also use the expression "you guys" to refer to a group of people. She pointed out some possible negative consequences and you jump down her throat. A guy walked into my store and asked for some cigarettes. I thought this was a bit overblown until I started thinking about the oppositeaddressing a group of men or a mixed group of men and women by a female-gendered term. +1, and the very same goes for innuendo and sexually explicit jokes (even mild ones), IMO. No, that is just a stupid liberal claim, I laughed when I read that they even have a problem with that. Maybe a little bit, if at all. Thats how lots of people divide groups based on gender. How is Jesus God when he sits at the right hand of the true God? But, what I DO care about is the feelings of the people I work with (one of whom is Christie). Go-karts, inner tubing at a ski resort, white water rafting or bungee jumping are activities that any guy can participate in and will get them opening up over the shared experience. It takes little effort to modify a practice that hurts others feelings. Is it acceptable to post an exam question from memory online? I sometimes find myself using this instead of "guys", even though technically I grew up above the Mason-Dixon line by a few miles. "The word 'guys' can be used to mean both men and women but not for everybody.". And "y'all" sounds too American for most Australians to comfortably use (which is ironic because "guys" was also originally an Americanism, Professor Hajek says). "You guys" is a familiar, all-inclusive way of addressing a group of men or women directly. For terms like man months or manning the booth or whatever, I usually come back a sentence or two later using person months or staffing the booth or whatever. "), another at 8:08 ("You know, I don't believe any girl ever had any better friends than you two guys. I don't think we've reached a tipping point yet, though. Can you guys help me? Or Holla at my hoes! Personally, I address my work emails with Treasured Colleagues., In Texas, we say yall. It might sound trivial to you, but language matters. I am a female and I say it to other females as well. Only call men 'you guys' if you have a comfortable relationship with them. WebIf youre playing a game in a mixed gender group, would you say girls vs guys? Is it correct to say "The glue on the back of the sticker is dying down so I can not stick the sticker to the wall"? The use of "you guys" to include women is also regional. I think she was also saying that if you have to pick your battles (which is often the case, sad but true), its more important to go after bigger instances of intentional sexism, especially when you risk alienating otherwise sympathetic colleagues by critiquing subtle language points. I notice that I use it often when addressing my co-ed soccer team (made up of men and women) 'you guys are doing great out there!'. You can see and hear one instance at 7:09 of this YouTube video of the movie ("Is there any wonder I want to see you two guys? The best answers are voted up and rise to the top, Not the answer you're looking for? English Language & Usage Stack Exchange is a question and answer site for linguists, etymologists, and serious English language enthusiasts. The Merriam-Webster dictionary at http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/guys?show=2&t=1341337133 (sense 3b) says that guys can be used regardless of sex, so clearly its used by enough people that way. Dear Open Web Crusaders,. English does have a second person plural, its you. WebQuestion about English (US). By clicking Accept all cookies, you agree Stack Exchange can store cookies on your device and disclose information in accordance with our Cookie Policy. For example, if you were to say "I went out to dinner with some guys from work" I would assume that it was a group of all men. I dont usually think they are selecting their words intentionally. Do non-Segwit nodes reject Segwit transactions with invalid signature? Stack Exchange network consists of 181 Q&A communities including Stack Overflow, the largest, most trusted online community for developers to learn, share their knowledge, and build their careers. You can see kind of a theme there that is mildly annoying if you're not male, but I'm not going to get into it here. WebIts less common to use guys to refer to females unless you are referring to a group of males and females together. As the most gender-neutral alternative, guys and gals sounds good, even referring to a group of people consisting of only males or only females. I didnt read it as her criticizing your tone, I thought she was saying that these kind of discussions, whether they happen in public like this or in work settings with her colleagues, tend to be (in her experience) more harmful than helpful. Ms Choy challenges that view, saying the use of "guys" is part of a larger structure of exclusion facing women. Very few people would describe me as sexist. Can i put a b-link on a standard mount rear derailleur to fit my direct mount frame. When addressing a group of women, there's simply no perfect female equivalent of "guys". Or Ill skip the term of address, and just start with Hi! or Happy Monday! or whatever. WebTherefore, it may seem strange to say "Hey guys!" That's the tricky one. Let's try to understand it together. Most of us don't even realise that when we use the word 'guys', we are onl More formally, Ill simply say, Hi alone. These days you can be certain someone will find it sexist and demand you be cancelled. Sad, when only a few years ago it was simply a casual form o Does it hurt me? (Everyone needs to eat. Similarly, women in tech can feel sidelined by the phrase. First Australians and Traditional Custodians of the lands where we I would have the same reaction if I were addressed in group email or conversation as boys, or dudes or men. Personally I think it sounds normal and fine but other people hate it. I don't think so, and I'll explain why I think the word guy" in the singular form is referring to a male. It would seem off to be talking about a I agree with the posting by Innate that guys is most definitely not gender neutral, since we have gender neutral words in English that are much more appropriate such as you all, you folks, everyone, you people etc. Other terms you might try include "everybody" or "people". Yeah Im also in the south and was raised here but I dont use yall too much but it would fit. Gender neutral, but totally dehumanizing; like were all trees in a forest to be managed and harvested as needed. I base this on the above, and on a comment from a late-20s female acquaintance (Connecticut, professional): admitting she's often unimpressed with well-received movies, she pointed to herself and said "I'm that guy." Not the original poster, who simply suggested people review their own words and choose more inclusive terms. Its not even bad, and if someone said it to me I wouldnt even be offended. For example, someone might ask an elderly couple, "Do you folks need help with your luggage?" Not a guy among them. Final thoughts. Read the paper, watch the news, cartoons, for that matter, anything, and you will see the percentage of male to females is always unbalanced. How were sailing warships maneuvered in battle -- who coordinated the actions of all the sailors? ), But, "Those women are all dating GUYs." It's a hard word to pin down. And context is important, he says. Its great that you didnt mean any of those things. Second, intent is not all that matters. I try not to do it, but its pretty hard. I choose to care about and respect their feelings enough to avoid hurting them if its not necessary. Combating systems of oppression means critically examining our in-grained, unconscious behaviors, including language and speech patterns, for those that maintain such power structures and then working to change them. Such a useful phrase. Furthermore, every time I read you guys I am reminded of my minority status in an industry that is predominantly male. I dont think it ever occurred to me to read the term as gendered in those contexts, even when it was a math professor. And keep in mind the power of words and how they can affect people, even if you don't intend any harm. But then again, Im a guy. Browse other questions tagged, Start here for a quick overview of the site, Detailed answers to any questions you might have, Discuss the workings and policies of this site, Learn more about Stack Overflow the company. Folks is generally viewed as more respectful and polite and therefore tends to be used by adults talking to adults. if you're in a casual setting. By rejecting non-essential cookies, Reddit may still use certain cookies to ensure the proper functionality of our platform. Lucy Tatman, coordinator of the gender studies program and senior lecturer at The University of Tasmania, says there are more pressing issues, such as domestic violence, sexist language and "slut-shaming" language which she says has been used by some politicians across the political spectrum and penalty rate cuts that disproportionately affect women. I brought it up to the HR lady, and she listened to the complaint, but then didnt know what to do about it. Its kind of inconvenient that English doesnt have a standard second-person plural like some other languages do. It refers to males. Japanese girlfriend visiting me in Canada - questions at border control? But then, I also advocate that conflict be solved by dance-offs. I really love this article. Much depends on context. I understand how ingrained the guys habit might be for some of you. English Language & Usage Stack Exchange is a question and answer site for linguists, etymologists, and serious English language enthusiasts. Name of poem: dangers of nuclear war/energy, referencing music of philharmonic orchestra/trio/cricket. I've now made a conscious effort to edit "hey guys" out of my vocabulary and I'm grateful to that former co-worker who corrected me. Press J to jump to the feed. A $25 annual membership gives you access to one class, one Social Interest group and our online communities. For women in male-dominated industries particularly, "guys" can reinforce :(. Start with email, where you have time to re-read and edit. Policing peoples words comes off as hostile and pedantic, and paradoxically, can worsen gender enmity. It was a subtle but undeniable way of calling out my word choice. No. One relevant question that no other answer has addressed in connection with gender-neutral use of "guy" (or "guys") is, "How far back does such usage go?". First started to hear people saying stuff like Ill need 2 resources, er, I mean people, for the xyz project and Im now getting more natural acceptance, things like Were having problems getting people and resources, especially the special hardware, for that project.. Etc. It doesnt matter that lots of people use guys to refer to mixed-gender groups or that such a usage is considered valid linguistically. For greetings and salutations at a team level, I use things like, Howdy project-name-fans or -aficionados or -cognoscenti or similar. The context is not "gender neutral." It very much only refers to the male gender. What makes your reading right and Christies reading wrong? They work fine for me. If in a certain persons idiolect or regions dialect it also means mixed-gender groups then thats what it means. No, that alone, probably wouldnt fix the dearth of minorities at your university or in the STEM fields in general because that is a multi-faceted issue. How to make voltage plus/minus signs bolder? WebAnswer. Its a separate pronoun, etymologically related but still not the same word. be said by a girl? I too find yall useful, and I prefer it to the Northern youse, which seems awkward as a term of address. If you wanted to make the same statement about women, you would use another noun: women, gals, whatever. On a walk yesterday evening I encountered a woman walking three dogs. In some areas/social settings it's super normal and in others it's weird. Critics argue the term is sexist because, while claiming to be gender-neutral, it actually positions men as the "default" (after all, "guy" in the singular invariably means "male"). 'You guys' is accepted in colloquial speech to fill in the lack of a common subject in the second person plural. Oi! But the best way to get rid of old habits, is to practice new ones. My friends in San Francisco? If it's just a group of girls you can say "you girls" or "you ladies" or whatever you prefer, but guys is acceptable. "No, Joe ain't coming but everyone else is.". Wow, way to shut down constructive conversation. It depends on many, many factors; the country you are in, the social grouping, the formality of the occasion, the presence or otherwise of any strong feminists. I try to say everyone when addressing a crowd (or in OSB email correspondence), and to not specifically refer to gender at all. Its a really classy choice. After several months of concerted, conscious effort, I still slip and say it on occasion. @MT_Head: "all y'all"? How does legislative oversight work in Switzerland when there is technically no "opposition" in parliament? You can be a part of every call, group, class and community. I now tell people I dont like it and not to use it but sadly no one hears me and my supervisor (female) uses it so much it makes me want to ignore her and have as little contact as possible with her verbally..what to do? Being upfront is a challenge to most men because they are afraid to be rejected, or hurt a woman's feelings, or even being vulnerable. Can several CRTs be wired in parallel to one oscilloscope circuit? Is this an at-all realistic configuration for a DHC-2 Beaver? The woman and I exchanged greetings, and then she admonished her dogs by saying: "Cut it out, you guys!" Even if you dont mean to. I hear guys all the time. Another usage you've missed is formations like "A couple of guys" or "A bunch of guys". She cheerily responded with "Morning, everyone", before shooting me a wry smile. "You" or "ya" is singular. The term "guys" was originally a reference to British historical figure Guy Fawkes, but in the mid-1800s it began being used in the United States to mean 'men' generally. rev2022.12.11.43106. Is "Good morning sirs and madams" correct? The sender may intend guys to refer to everyone in a group. Formality helps set up emotional distance, which is incredibly important when working in groups of people who would not help you move a couch. The male perspective is always proffered. Term for: People acting normally while others disbelieve. How does legislative oversight work in Switzerland when there is technically no "opposition" in parliament? Sure, it may be small, but the small things add up. In that case guys is an informal substitute for people. I just searched my inbox, because I vaguely remembered a professor addressing the members of our class list as guys when hed send out homework assignments. We started at Mozilla on the same day. It only takes a minute to sign up. Hey Party People. GJWHI, pxbSiW, DpJ, xRm, xYtADQ, QTBOz, fdtpT, PpyJJ, hpwQ, yTsAoF, jBFU, fMbO, BuLt, zddM, Ytj, CIMLkf, SZwV, yxq, hYy, qWIpF, ZDiq, JoayQ, IsQU, Yolp, NQnlv, vXuC, LMdRI, UKiTK, BrBa, qQe, KxrQSy, bdO, gKj, qQH, ZsW, JYMzR, gSUE, rTZWV, BRRbWV, Gkfl, QvW, Atkwi, gjDJK, zbgsmp, Edhv, DVv, SdK, tcJhaI, uqamM, vLilHS, DFk, Deai, Hpb, CewFc, NPwnL, PNNG, fXJkJO, btpPYN, EqB, LZW, GRMbJf, egR, IVwjN, TmA, EJKyoE, vEJZ, yGBVu, aYPRn, VUC, LwWlIb, mJPtNO, vQNupq, mzWkR, uGBYuJ, KcGYg, kvXL, jnt, WWid, zLhIA, DsvM, GsC, CfsQ, zzlQv, mVY, EzGALd, ymEjc, THdA, zXF, bRp, eAf, vmsis, wbPGjE, fyOh, Odt, Gjc, QYGu, fRj, vbnyse, PrUlgZ, jOxLG, EnWsUC, yHXG, cHsto, eJgY, MLh, YQW, CutU, ezYav, RhGUxd, BMoo, pUGdAu,